Ds Nerf
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It is time to make this happen. Myself chess and desu orginally conceived the ds boost to give ds light defensive capabilities. The militia boost was an alternative to the previously existing 6 defence infantry which the admins nerfed without discussion. This boost was only ever meant to be a temporary beta. Then along came ivan with a new unforseen marine capacity upgrade adding further to ds' already unmatched expansion capabilities. We have tried it now and it is obviously too strong. It would be unfair of me to leave it in place just because i no longer duel and it doesn't affect me. I can see it needs to happen, the duelists see it needs to happen.
I think we should remove the militia defence boost. This will leave ds still a powerful competitive strat without destroying it completely. It was already an ok strat before any of the changes but the militia range and extra marine capacity should be enough to achieve what was originally intended. If anyone has any other suggestions i am all ears. I saw witch doctors suggestion of 7 attack ds helis. This too could work however it would probably require further amendment. I dont want to see ds rendered useless.
This will be my last alteration to the strategies, any further developements will have to come from future generations or our admins if they ever return to work on this game. This last change will leave the strats in the best shape theyve ever been in with all bar ra and hw having a competitive niche.
I am going to leave this thread up for a while before going to ivan. If anyone has any further insights/ideas/solutions please post them below. I am only interested in constructive and logical posts. Anything else will be ignored.
Allow me to take the liberty of pre-emptively striking off the usual trash that fills up these threads. No this is not just about ds ukraine. No this is not just about europe+. No scenarios and rp have no influence on strat balance. No ds is not being nerfed so laochra can enjoy pd supremacy. No we do not need to just learn how to counter a different playstyle. No clovis that laochra was proved wrong a year ago does not have anything to do with ds' current overpowered state. No waffel, just no.
I think that deals with most of it. Looking forward to the responses.
I think we should remove the militia defence boost. This will leave ds still a powerful competitive strat without destroying it completely. It was already an ok strat before any of the changes but the militia range and extra marine capacity should be enough to achieve what was originally intended. If anyone has any other suggestions i am all ears. I saw witch doctors suggestion of 7 attack ds helis. This too could work however it would probably require further amendment. I dont want to see ds rendered useless.
This will be my last alteration to the strategies, any further developements will have to come from future generations or our admins if they ever return to work on this game. This last change will leave the strats in the best shape theyve ever been in with all bar ra and hw having a competitive niche.
I am going to leave this thread up for a while before going to ivan. If anyone has any further insights/ideas/solutions please post them below. I am only interested in constructive and logical posts. Anything else will be ignored.
Allow me to take the liberty of pre-emptively striking off the usual trash that fills up these threads. No this is not just about ds ukraine. No this is not just about europe+. No scenarios and rp have no influence on strat balance. No ds is not being nerfed so laochra can enjoy pd supremacy. No we do not need to just learn how to counter a different playstyle. No clovis that laochra was proved wrong a year ago does not have anything to do with ds' current overpowered state. No waffel, just no.
I think that deals with most of it. Looking forward to the responses.
It dominates only in 5k and 10k when players use pd imp gc lb...the strategies that are strong due to infs,and thats basicly the only strong point of ds,to kill infantry. If 3vs3 was played on 15k 25k or 50k settings nobody would use ds.all the ds nerf talk due to it being strong as only 2-3 countries in eu+ 10k 
---- ''Everywhere where i am absent, they commit nothing but follies'' ~Napoleon 
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If 1 country beats all other countries on the map...maybe the country is OP and not the strat
---- ''Everywhere where i am absent, they commit nothing but follies'' ~Napoleon
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It's easier to fix a strat than to have amok update the map smartass.
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There will always be people who would oppose to nerfs and buffs..if amok just updates 1 troublemaking country it would fix everything 
---- ''Everywhere where i am absent, they commit nothing but follies'' ~Napoleon
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Nerf the fuck out of DS. Please. And on a side note its funny how every year we have the same conversation about strat changes, like with ra, blitz, ds, with exactly the same people or the same type of people, since some players retire and new ones join. But its funny how identical the dynamics of the situation is, lao on the one side with some competitive players on his side, said strat abusers on the other side and random people. Offcourse clovis always picks the side against laochra and works hard to make his life miserable. Oh and waffel is the wild card, siding either with lao or with clovis, depending on who he hates more this year/period
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duhhh gotta create some drama bruh, AW forums boring af! xxxaxaxaxa *And khal always picking the side against me, which also is siding with lao xaxa*
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Freeman 帳戶已刪除 |
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I am pretty sure ivan's stance from here on out is that there will be no changes to the current strategies.
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I would be concerned if it wasn't like that. DS should of course outperform the other strategies in DS's niche. Problems arises when the DS starts to usurp other strategies niche. All the tests that I picked are zones in which DS should perform bad. You got a rich but pretty large map on one side and some poor maps with medium size. If you can play DS and put up a fight in theses zones, then of course, I would'be concerned.
There's a problem with theses settings. Because it's based on raw expansion power, you're assuming that you won't have to defend, but thrown all the money and units to expansion. DS should'be good on that. DS's main selling point is the fact that it can crush infantries/militias waves with ease. With some funds, DS helicopters becomes the best units for expansion. I don't think we need to argue about that. I'm afraid that is not a good test-case scenario. Having several duels there would allow you to test all the important factor. Ease to defend, expansion capabilities, versatility, and so on. Eventually you should encounter some offensive-strat player to test how DS fairs against them. The latest point is important. It would'be pretty interesting to see a DS vs SM duel in True Competition map or both as Poland in the Symetrical Europe, just to see how both fairs when having the same expansion opportunities.
DS is obviously good at Rushing but that's not what I wanted to test there. As for his lategame potential on poor zones, where you have ~200 to ~500 income in the biggest part of the game, It should'be below GW,IMP,HW,PD and Blitz by default (I'm being gentle here).
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I believe that Ivan's concern was about rolling unpopular changes. He wrote in the interview:
The idea is to find a change which everybody can agree to (or being fine with). But it's hard when everybody wants to impose themselves and nobody wants to secede. They all go "I win-you lose" mentality and negotiations doesn't works like that... Ideally I'd say leave it as it is but I can understand that some players (lao and co) believes that DS should'be changed. I could'be wrong. They could'be seeing something that I don't. I can secede and agree to a slight Nerf, but I'd like my concerns to be addressed first. I (and I believe many others) would like to see a danger in DS on it's current form, outside of DS Ukraine. So far we (or me) haven't seen this. That is why I proposed lao to play DS in other areas and post the results. Personally it would credit him a lot from my perspective, if he can show a danger in DS there. Is DS good against SM when in fair conditions? Is DS's lategame good? Proof backed up by duels and screenshot would help a lot to prove theses points.
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When we encountered ds on africa i died t1 to a ds rush on SAs cap. I sent khal my money and he killed cameroon by t5. The ds player spammed militia and pushed north with occasional heli support outexpanding and outproducing khal who was imperialist. Khal tried taking north but was driven out. That is ridiculous. On a map like africa if you take advantage of a power strat like sm if or ds t1 to gain an expansion advantage, you shouldnt also get the benefit of a powerful lategame after. It unbalances that area of the meta. I agree with you, it should definitely be below gw imp hw pd and blitz there. The reason i encouraged you to try those settings is because that is where the imbalance lies. Ds' unmatched expansion and unit prod capabilities because of the 5 defence militia. It is now worth channeling income into spamming stacks of them. Whether you can stop rushes depends on the map layout and whether or not you can bring units to your cap to defend in time. The example i provided with ukraine was getting 35-40 into kiev t3 with 1 at while taking half the map speaks for itself in terms of the criteria you mentioned . I don't know why you would expect this to be different elsewhere. The question is whether the country and surrounding area is suitable for ds or not. This is why i favour the militia defence nerf. If the units arent so powerful then the problem ismore manageable. I don't see how those duels you are suggesting would provide much in the way of useful data. True competition's income is too low to support these strats. Symmetrical eu however would work in terms of a fair battle. If you want we can try it but i dont see how it will help...
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Ivans not changing anything, can you stop arguing for this now?
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You dont play the game anymore, just leave.
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I lost a single* duel in which you tbed me multiple times. The deal was turk vs ukr but you ran away to Poland. I'll get my revenge later.
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No the deal was you beat DS not turk vs ukr.
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Stryko 帳戶已刪除 |
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Hahaha
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Removed some of the off-topic comments. Please keep the discussion focused on the topic at hand instead of arguing about personal problems. You don't have to agree with the OP but let's be constructive here, people complain the community isn't asked for their input, lets try make this productive and help better the game.
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Why hasn't DS been nerfed yet? It is clearly too OP with militia boost and marine capacity. Plus the added advantage of helis against inf (-2 defense to helis)
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Noobs who use it as a crutch complaining their toy is being taken away
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The complaining doesnt matter when it has no basis, just waiting for ivan to login. He'll either do it or he wont.
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So whats it gonna be? What exact nerfs are gonna happen? Because it seems like we are waiting for Ivan to ''do it or he wont do it'' yet we (the community who is asked) don't know what he will do or wont do?
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Thank you for your input. 
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