Remove 2x SP from Clan War.
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原發表
發表從 clovis1122, 30.11.2014 - 17:09
Other testimony:
You know? this ain't helping for "a prioritization of clan wars" as most people say and defend, but rather, to farm low rank clan, to make a new clan and play with unfair ranks just for the 2x, and of course, to farm SP.
New: 2x SP effect on Clan Wars:
•) The appear of "farming clans" (Clans playing for SP. They dont care about losing).
•) Greatly reduce the quality of CW's. If in the past we had few CW's but with quality, now we have a lot of cw's but without quality.
•) Probably the most negative effect: It greatly damage the current 3vs3 system. Players tend to CW more often, and 3vs3 less. This of course damage the player on long-term (no practice) and also affect the new players that still play 3vs3 on main lobby (no expert hand for play)
•) Bribe players. They want SP, they play for SP.
•) The cw's on custom maps (like ancient) are starting to grow. This would be good , except for the players doing it for SP, and not for the diversity.
EDIT: well I knew players who play cw's wouldn't support... I just want to say: Nice farm.
" If RP players play RP for fun and not for SP, then they wouldn't have problem if we Nerf it, would they?"
Cool, now let me add:
"If you guys play CW for fun and not for SP, then there wouldn't be a problem if it gets Nerf, would it?
Nobody is telling you to join Clans, but you shouldn't be telling people in clans what to do then. Just like you are actually do here. And for point 4, makes no sense at all. Even people who stack with 092834324 tanks and908732497324 inf and just rush capital turn 3 or whatever turn can still be able to win. What do you devine skilled though? Because I see rank 4's walking around (not in clan, not 3v3 not rp) and still be able to kick some higher ranks (my opinion) Just for example, WF is a skill, but playing without much WF'ing it doesnt mean you are less skilled player? Another example is, I have seen so many people rush from turn 3 till turn 7 just turn after turn, rush after rush, and all failled, so this means they are skilled? because those people were highranks, play 3v3's, cw's and still make big-time-fails? I assume you should put a bit more perspectives into it, and might come to an conclusion. This thread is just a crazyass idea to mock about SP once again. Seems like all of you people care more about SP than actually playing.......
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I am not telling people in clans what to do. I am merely stating that this ridiculous +100% bonus should be removed.
I assume that your jest about a person stacking some ridiculous number of units and rushing capital turn 3 is your evidence as to why my point 4 is wrong. Can you be more detailed? I can't follow your line of thought here. So a player can stack a gazillion tanks to rush cap and win. Alright. How does that disprove #4?
I define skill as "those abilities of the person, distinct from his/her inherent external advantages, to achieve success in a given field." So in this case, I would consider skill to be whatever helps you win more often. So, I would consider WF a skill. Before people start criticizing me about this, consider this: most people consider the leaders of the NSDAP, who ruled Germany from 1932~1945, evil, but nobody ever claims that they were incompetent. Not after 1940, in any case. I would not consider rushing turn after turn from turn 3 to turn 7 skill, because failed rushing doesn't help you win. Also, what are you trying to prove by saying that those incompetent players are competitive high-rankers? I fail to grasp your point.
The playing field must be level, and yes. I care about SP, since it is an actual resource. That can actually be useful.
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No we call that reward for being the higher skilled players in the game, competing in the only form of formal game, where the results are documented and presented in the public.
because 1.its a fair reward, for a type of game, where only the best of this game play. 2.It encourages competition and fairplay.Players from any map can start playing cws.No allyfagging there and no gangbanging.No diplomacy and no backstabbing.Just pure skill competition with a predetermined team. 3.low ranks who cw, are not so disadvantaged, as they were in the past.Low ranks who cwed, had great disadvantages, as it took them too long to get the Sp needed for necessary upgrades to compete.3v3 was not giving them SP also.They was forced to play scenarios,ancient and Rp just so they can get the upgrades they wanted.
You use the word encouragement with means the action of giving someone support, confidence, or hope. Then you say "Let the players play what they want", implying the use of force which means coercion or compulsion, especially with the use or threat of violence.I think you are confused.Nobody is forcing anyone to play anything.Just encouragement.For example your parent encourage you to stop taking drugs.They are not forcing you to, cause it is your body and your choice.But they have every right for friendly advice and encouragement, for what they think is best for you, even if hypothetically they are wrong.
No it was unfair to players who cwed.A cw lasting 2 hours could net them 1k sp.A player playing other maps for 2 hours could net 5k sp.Also see #1 and #2.
Safe to say if you put all high rank cw players next to other map players of the same rank, cw players will have double, triple, i will even go as far as say close to 10 times the other persons games.
Because AW wants to promote skill,fairplay,etiquette,tactics and not noobplaying,allyfagging,diplomacy and etc.Awarding sp to begginers lobby serves no purpose.And normal games in main lobby, if they are not 3v3, they already getting pretty good Sp, no need to change.
Irrelevant.Pont's point still stands.
No they are not special.Clan wars at the moment is the arena for the higher skilled players in the game and provide the most intense competition.For that fact alone they deserve an SP boost.I will go as far as saying they deserve PC but lol ok.We can test this if you want.Get me a scenario or rp player and a hardcore cw player and walk them through 10-15 preset maps of any kind.Meaning any kind of map where there are no custom units and events.If the rp/scenario guy wins more, then i will delete my account. EDIT!  i am not putting my account on another players hand.I will participate in said competition, for the bet of my account being deleted.But a competition between 2 random players in said settings, would give evidence to your claims and go along way to support your yet weak argument.
see #4
Still you are missing more premises to support your conclusion.Just on the premise of symbolic does not equal zero, we cant see why you reached the conclusion of Sp must be removed from Cws.
based on your 10 points above, i am not convinced yet.You failed in my eyes to provide a complete valid sound argument of said Sp boost being arbitrary,unfair and purposeless (i take out laughably, cause sense of humour is subjective) More like you had some questions, that needed answering. 
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Impressive, Sia. Quite a rebuttal. Well, I like a challenge.
Higher skilled players should earn more SP, that is true. However, higher skilled players are already earning more SP. In any game, good players are more likely to win, and therefore more likely to walk away with more SP. Why is the formality, the documentation and presentation of games relevant in determining SP gain? If someone starts to, say, writing forum reports about all 1v1 games in the Beginner lobby, do those games deserve more SP for their players? I think not.
1. See above. "Best of this game" already earns more SP. 2. So are you of the opinion that team games in the Main and Beginner lobbies should also gain the SP bonus? Given how there's no diplomatic flexibility, which you say (and I agree) is "fair," in those games as well. 3. See my point #11. This should be fixed by reducing scenario, ancient, and RP SP gains, not increasing Clan War SP gains. Any SP increase conducted for this reason should apply equally to all games, so that gaining this needed SP through 3v3s, role-plays, 10-player free-for-all Europe games are all equally valid methods.
Alright. Let me take out all the fluffy words, and summarize my argument. 1. The SP bonus makes some players who would not not otherwise play Clan Wars play Clan Wars. 2. The players would not otherwise play Clan Wars because they do not think that it is a fun enough type of gameplay. 3. Thus, the bonus is making people play games which they do not think is truly fun. This is not ideal. 4. Therefore, the bonus should be removed. But yeah. Poor word choice from me there. I'll fix that as soon as I can.
A 3v3 Europe game that lasts about two hours nets each player an average of about 1k, or maybe even less. So exactly why should Clan Wars be SP-boosted, when 3v3 Europe isn't?
Again, see above. It isn't just Clan Wars that have too little SP. SP gain in a game should be boosted because certain maps yield less SP, not because it's a Clan War. In other words, if I play a 3v3 Europe in the main lobby, that should have as much of a bonus as the same 3v3 Europe in Clan Wars.
This point was about SP needed to buy upgrades. It has nothing to do with what AtWar wishes to promote. If a reason to give more SP to Clan War is because those people need upgrades, then it is logical that extra SP be also awarded to the rank 0~4 Beginners, as they are the people who are most in need of upgrades. Speaking of what AtWar promotes, as I said in an earlier post, games has one purpose, and that is to be fun. There are still plenty of RP games, which demonstrate the fact that some players consider such a playing style fun. Since the players are still enjoying themselves, RP games serve the exact same purpose that Clan War games does.
It does not matter if he is right or wrong. I am saying that if he is right, and nobody is playing Clan War for the SP, then my point #2 applies, as it applies to those people who think the SP gain is irrelevant to players.
Clan Wars are open to anyone, at the moment. Until and unless Clan Wars become restricted to those players who demonstrate sufficient skill, there will be, and I guarantee this, novices playing Clan War. Clan Wars do not inherently repel unskilled players. Therefore giving extra SP for "higher skill" is flawed, to say the least. I would actually consider giving Clan War players Protocoins, as you suggest, a better measure than giving them Strategy Points. Since Protocoins can be bought, I honestly don't really care if it is a fair gain or not. Strategy Points can't be bought, so I consider it absolutely essential that SP remain fair.
I was responding to a point that stated that since the actual SP gain from the +100% bonus is so small, it is not large enough to seriously compromise fairness of SP. I responded that symbolic does not equal zero, and a compromise of fairness is a compromise of fairness, however small.
Bring it. I enjoy a good debate as much as anyone else in these forums. I merely request that you remain as civil and reasonable that you're being right now. That was a pleasure to respond to, since a reasonable discussion seems to be a rarer substance than gold in the AtWar forum.
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 Nice, awsome, great... finally a good debate! I love you guys! PS: i hope you liked the rhyme great - debate
---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people. 
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The number of clans participating in the season might not be doing so because of sp. You are speculating, you would need to go interview the clan leaders and each of their members to determine so. And if i dare speculate myself i would be surprised if you found many players who are playing for the sp, but i am sure the low ranks certainly consider it a bonus. Yes i am in illyria, i think you need to remind what the subject matter of this thread is, farming clans aren't called farming clans by others because you get easy sp from beating them, it is because you get easy wins and comp from beating them.You know this, why would you make this point? Low rank clans challenge better clans because they want to challenge good players, not because they are suicidal. This is how you improve. When i started dueling i challenged r10s 11s and 13s, i got my ass kicked and developed a 1:2 win/loss ratio. I wasn't suicidal, this is how i learned. I personally play few 3v3s and i know its the same with some of my clanmates. This is because there is little challenge for us in them anymore, players dont tend to take them seriously and as a result you get poor quality games. You get the best out of people in cws, when there is something on the line. Again it is not because of sp and i must remind you that this is the subject matter of this thread. I think you know all this, and id be surprised if you didn't, i feel like you were trolling me with this post.
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That is a good point actually.I think the SP boost serves 2 purposes in the end.One being a "reward" to players who participate in the only form of formal competition aw has to offer.Even if in reality, since most players are high ranks, who dont really need sp, the reward is useless to them, it is the only reward moderators have the power to offer the cw players.Thats why we call it symbolic. The second is encouragement, for people who play normal games in main lobby, to start testing their skills more formally and officially, in the cw arena.The fact alone that the cw games are recorded, spectated by alot of people and presented in the public, creates a more competitive atmosphere and pushes the players think more, play better, want to practice more.It also gives them a sense of purpose and meaning to the time they spend, cause their achievements, if any, are documented.Wins/losses, performance, sportsmanship are all factors that have meaning in cws, whereas in normal games, not so much.
1.yeah but isnt that just?Seems logical to me, that the better players leap forward in Sp and have more gains.It is the basis of competition.Also Sp used to be a measure for game experience.Aw is an exception in this, cause i dont know many other games, where the experienced players can have less SP (experience points) than less experience players, simply because they play other types of games. 2.yes.but cws even more, for the reasons i explained in #1. 3.its not very realistic and practical, to closely analyse sp gains in all maps (hundreds and hundreds) and apply an sp reduction there.This could take months and i doubt moderators are up to the task lol.
yeah ok that is a reasonable valid argument.But 2 and 3 are not true i think.Firstly because the bonus is not that high anyway.They could still play scenarios and ancient maps and im pretty sure they would get more SP than cwing.Especially since, secondly, to actually make a cw, you need time, energy/effort and specific requirements fullfilled.You need to make sure you have 3 people online, able to play it, then you need to find actual opponents to fight, which can be hard and very time consuming, especially since many clans argue in factors like map,settings,ranks and etc So just for the time you need to find a cw before you actually play it, you could have joined a scenario and be already at 300-500 sp also the same argument could be used, for low ranks who wanted to cw or 3v3.it would take them and still takes them, too much time to get the sp they need for upgrades and so they were/still are forced to play scenarios to do that.
For all the reasons i explained in 1.CW's just for the fact they are the official/formal, form of competition, motivates people to get better and engage in a great spirit of competition.A lot, if not most players, seek fun through competition.After maxing your upgrades, theres not many things a high rank has to look up for.Cws are there to fill up that gap.Otherwise most of the high ranks would loose interest and prob leave the game, myself included.
Giving more sp to begginers, serves no purpose, because sp are supposed to be earned and not gifted.With huge sp gains, players loose purpose and will to improve.Sp works as a reward until you complete your upgrades, exactly how leveling up works in other games. On the second point offcourse fun is subjective thats why, as i explained in my previous points, cw's offer mainly competition and skill improovement.People who play them extract fun, so in the end they get the same result, by engaging in a more skillfull,competitive type of play.Because objectively, you dont have fair competition in RP and nore is it an accurate depiction of your skill.Since diplomacy is such a big factor there, all these factors are denied.
They are open, but as i explained before, its so much of a hassle, for causal, low skilled players, to try and make one.Thats why i think those who do, should get rewarded.
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wow khal..nice soldout trying to be a mod? whats next?sleepovers at creyentes house?
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i sleepover at lao's.we both been trying to be mods for some months now 
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Kinda obvious what we can see here. According to Tito: 1. Play Europe+ 3vs3 10k 4 minutes. Apparently is the only map and those are the only settings in AtWar. - Ancient? Sorry no cw unless we have pro ancient players. Any other map? Sorry no cw. 3. Play against a clan that have more knowledge, more ranks, more upgrades and more skills than you. So in this way you can get merely destroyed at the cost of CP and Competence, while they get +SP +CP +Comp. -No upgrades? Sorry you need to give us advantage or no CW. 4. There is a lot of skill in playing PD and stacking your countries. -Apparently AtWar doesn't offer you any other strategy. Apparently diplomacy, reinforcements-efficiently, cost-efficiently, range-skills, wall-skills and everything not related to stack troops is not skill, but bad gameplay.
Apparently khal doesnt care enough for hide his love about Clan Wars: Duels, casual games, whole world all they are irrelevant. Only sweet 2x SP clan wars cares. And as khal called and laochra seems to recall: You should train in CW, so you get 2x SP. We also get +SP, +CP and +Comp. so dont worry, we are willing to crush you. 3vs3? What is that? Sorry we dont get 2x SP so we dont play 3vs3 anymore. Please stop calling us "competitive" players and start calling us "ClanWar" players. And yeah, not laochra nor khal seems to adress why the clans accept those unfair CW's for the first place. "They want to challenge the stronger" , against, proves the boomerang effect and is an invalid answer (As no clan would ask other for CW with overrank and upgrades ON). Both say I am speculating even though they are witness of how own illyria had played unfair match against other coalitions. I wonder if you guys even though about telling those clans: "Hey, we are stronger than you guys. Maybe we can play with no upgrades for balance". But is sure that you guys told: "Hey PARS, ZOG, Suomi, Tendo, Winterfell, CW US come on! Are you guys scared? come CW CW CW. " Just a small comparison between the "Old" system and the currently one: Old CW system: Only your first 10 CW's count. No 2x multiplier. Results: •) Players training a lot, and therefore the 3vs3 had a lot of quality - Clan War was the battlefield, not a place for "training". New CW system: Your last 30 CW's count. 2x multiplier on CW's. Results: •) Your first time playing europe+ 3vs3 teamgame? go play CW. You will earn 2x SP and also a lot of knowledge. Dont worry about that cw, because less Comp = More CP per win. We can also replace that loss later!!!!
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It would be way better if no one had started this war about SP multipliers. Stupid assholes.
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Stupid idea, made by a troll can mods lock this? there is nothing meaningful in this nonsense topic is sad that you spam this topic in game chat and global in order to get attention
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Well, i ve played rp and cw, and in rp you have 30-40 turn games with 6 min turns, 3-4 hours more or less and the most sp player had 1500 sp , then i played a 15 turn cw normal settings and i won 1k sp. rp isn't a farm, you will not see a rp player playing 3 vs 3 or cwingand when the 3 vs 3 players offer 1 vs 1 to beat an rp player easily , they don't play in the rp scenario, they play in europe, is like a player that only play ancient world calls noob to a europe player because he lost in ancient , i truly don't understand all the hate some guys have for rp and how many post have you done against rp , an rp player plays rp, not europe or wwii, etc, and in this very moment cw is a bigger farm than rp
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Why couldn't this be the first comment : )
---- R.I.P. Mortal Kombat 2/15/2015  ~Cryptic(CDN)
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Shouldn't all this documentation, the wins/losses, performance, and sportsmanship be a reward on its own? I fail to see how these things justifies an SP bonus. You can still have all those things without the +100% bonus. A Clan War is not all that different from a Main Lobby game in the actual gameplay. You go in, move units around strategically, and try to kill your opponent(s) before he kills you. Clan War does not actually present a greater challenge to gameplay - it just presents you with more honorable opponents and more formality. Should it not be rewarded the same way, then? As I have said, no way of earning SP should be easier than others. And lastly, if you believe that SP is so meaningless to high ranks, why do you insist on holding on to it? An honorable mention on the forums or a token amount of Protocoins can also be an excellent symbolic reward, after all. I believe I have already stated why SP bonuses should not be given to encourage players to play more competitively. I believe that I have also stated that if the admins insist on incentivizing people to play competitive games, they should do it with Protocoins, not SP.
I have advocated that SP-reduction for maps should be automatic (no mod action), since a computerized algorithm can be a lot quicker and a lot fairer than moderators can be. I will advocate it again.
As I have said, this should be fixed by reducing SP gain of scenarios and ancient maps, not by giving CW a SP bonus.
Ooh, this is a hard one to answer. After about ten minutes of hard thought, I am going to respond, a decently-running RP game can also take from ten minutes to an hour to set up, depending on the time. Clan War at least has its separate forum category, which should, in my opinion, be used to organize Clan Wars as well as reporting them.
So if SP is supposed to be earned and not gifted, then you will need to demonstrate a good reason exactly what quality of Clan Wars justify its +100% bonus.
Fun is subjective. Very true. The fact that RP is so uncompetitive makes no difference to the fact that some players find it fun. The fact that RP is uncompetitive makes no difference also to the fact that it's hard to win. Again, as I have said, if the admins want to reward competitive play, let them do it with Protocoins. Rewarding SP is just plain unfair, since, as you say, it's supposed to be earned. Speaking of diplomacy, I just had a great flash of inspiration. WE SHOULD TRY AND GET A GAME OF DIPLOMACY (the board game) GOING, SIA! The original Diplomacy was too unbalanced, but the 1900 variant is quite good. There's nothing quite like seeing the Prime Minister and the Kaiser uneasily eyeing each other over the board, trying to figure out the best time to backstab each other. Could be a nice way to spice up the forums a bit, you know? Heck, if there's enough support, I'll game-master it myself.
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Did you not even read these posts? Clovis and myself posted some very convincing arguments against keeping this bonus. Sia made some very convincing arguments for keeping the bonus. Read all of those, come back, and make a sensible and intelligent comment. Cheers.
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Lol? You and clovis did all but disagree with useless arguements about skilled players this skilled players that lol.
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Are you trying to say that we do disagree, or that we don't disagree? By "useless arguments," do you mean our arguments against the Clan War bonus, someone else's arguments against said bonus, or someone else's arguments for keeping the bonus? I have no idea what "this skilled players that lol" is supposed to even mean. Be more coherent. I can't even understand what you're trying to say.
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You reffered to point 4 of page 2 when I said something, all your point said was skilled players > better than unskilled players in rp and all that other crap. Now you say you and clovis made ''good'' points'' which is bs bcs most of the things you said were not valid :/ anyways this thread is useless as it titel already is. No need to change everything what you personally dont like. Seems to be alot of people forget that in this game.
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Skilled players do better in games, RP included, than unskilled players. That's why they're called "skilled players" - because they're good at winning games. What's your point here?
Please demonstrate evidence to this effect. Can't you argue logically, like Sia is doing?
Please demonstrate evidence to this effect.
Problematic measures should be fixed. Seems like a lot of people forget than when playing online games.
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I am not argueing, I had already said everything I had to say for this thread, go look page 2/3 This topic is useless and irrelevant
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International, I support your logic. Maybe not at a 100% but at a 95%. I love your debate with Khal, one of the few well based on real arguments in all of AW forum. Don't pay attention to what Waffel might say, there's no point in listening to a guy that doesnt want to argue and just wants to lock the debate. I also find the 2x multiplier for CW a bit illogical or shameful since I really dont give a fuck about the sp. I dont even play them for any sp. I'd even apreciate more to be given a medal than all that sp 
---- Don't ever look down on someone unless you're helping him up. Don't ever treat someone else the way you wouldn't want others to treat you. We're all people.
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